Greg Gates

Greg Gates

@gregat.es

philosopher-turned-software-engineer currently working on databricks's recently acquired spreadsheet product data & technology manager for WA's 36th LD Democrats my little blog: https://gregat.es

817 followers237 following503 posts

new pet peeve unlocked: abusing hyperlinks to open a chat window and prompt an LLM instead of linking to a relevant document

dystopian thought: saying "computer enhance" to fill in the numbers on a blurry license plate is absolutely something that we have the technology to do now!

(the numbers will be made up, but that only matters if you care about things like truth and justice)

Maybe my most out of touch belief is that if you refuse to spoil a movie that has a big twist or reveal, you have also failed to explain to me why I should see it.

It's good!! Oh really, what makes it good? I can't tell you. Sounds like it's probably not that good, then!

I know people whose judgment I would trust enough to just take their word for it. One thing those people have in common is that they'd all be happy to explain why a movie is good without worrying about "spoiling" it.

It can simultaneously be true that we don't know for certain that AI isn't conscious and that it would be daft and irresponsible to go around loudly insisting that everyone repeatedly acknowledge this fact. Similar dynamic to constantly reminding everyone that the polls might be wrong

Greg Gates reposted

Are LLMs conscious? Some people are loudly insisting that the correct response is "They might be! We don't know." I think it's better to say: We have no evidence that they are.

Are LLMs conscious? Some people are loudly insisting that the correct response is "They might be! We don't know." I think it's better to say: We have no evidence that they are.

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So on some level it is true to say that we can't be certain LLMs are conscious. But this is more or less as true as saying that we can't be certain WE are conscious. It's because we don't understand consciousness well, not because we have any evidence that Claude possesses it.

(This is leaving aside the fact that an LLM is not even a thing we can clearly identify as an individual. What is even the subject of the sentence "Claude is conscious"?)

Are LLMs conscious? Some people are loudly insisting that the correct response is "They might be! We don't know." I think it's better to say: We have no evidence that they are.

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But we maybe can't completely rule out the idea that our concept of consciousness doesn't even correspond to anything real. Or that what it does correspond to is some functional or anyway non-physical property that LLMs and humans do share, despite being physically quite different.

Maybe consciousness is really just an emergent property that supervenes on the ability to use language. I would not say I am certain that it isn't, though I do think it's quite plausible that at least some nonhuman, non-language-using animals have conscious experience.

Are LLMs conscious? Some people are loudly insisting that the correct response is "They might be! We don't know." I think it's better to say: We have no evidence that they are.

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Now it's true that the mechanisms that produce consciousness in humans are poorly understood at best. Therefore, we cannot be certain that we haven't produced consciousness despite the lack of physical similarity or shared ancestry. We also cannot be certain that trees aren't conscious.

There are even philosophical theories that eliminate consciousness and would claim that all consciousness even is in humans is just behavior, say, or speech. But these are radical, fringe theories that are not in any way entailed by mere materialism.

Are LLMs conscious? Some people are loudly insisting that the correct response is "They might be! We don't know." I think it's better to say: We have no evidence that they are.

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LLMs are designed to reproduce human language, by mimicking human use of language, even by predicting novel uses, so it is utterly unsurprising that they could convincingly imitate a human talking about the experience of consciousness. That's what LLMs do. We know that because we designed them.

And they have no other similarities with humans besides language use. LLMs came to be via a very different path than humans and animals. They are physically quite different. So we have no other reason to think they're conscious like us.

Are LLMs conscious? Some people are loudly insisting that the correct response is "They might be! We don't know." I think it's better to say: We have no evidence that they are.

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The reason for this is that a tape recorder is nothing like anything that we know to be conscious. More importantly, we can explain precisely how it came to emit these sounds, and the mechanism has nothing to do with anyone's experience of consciousness.

LLMs are like this. The mechanism by which they function is maybe less perfectly understood (by most people), but it is well-understood enough that we can confidently explain how an LLM would come to claim to be conscious without having any experience of such.

Are LLMs conscious? Some people are loudly insisting that the correct response is "They might be! We don't know." I think it's better to say: We have no evidence that they are.

View full thread

Now, if human claims to consciousness are grounded in experience, can we infer that all claims to consciousness are evidence of consciousness? Maybe so! Maybe if an LLM says, "Hey guys, I am also conscious," we should give at least some credence to that claim.

However, even if this is evidence, it can be undermined by other evidence. Suppose, for example, that a tape recorder emits sounds that, for all anyone can tell, are exactly like a human saying "I am conscious!" Should we think that it is? Obviously not.

Are LLMs conscious? Some people are loudly insisting that the correct response is "They might be! We don't know." I think it's better to say: We have no evidence that they are.

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So other people's claims about their own conscious experience are evidence of their consciousness. It's not certain, but it's reasonable to believe that their conscious experience is similar to mine, just as many other things about them are similar to me.

It's even reasonable to infer that some nonhuman animals might have conscious experience. They're less like me, but not totally dissimilar. We have shared ancestry. Consciousness must have evolved — maybe before us. They can't talk about their experiences, but they may well have them!

Are LLMs conscious? Some people are loudly insisting that the correct response is "They might be! We don't know." I think it's better to say: We have no evidence that they are.

View full thread

Famously, each of us only has this kind of direct evidence of our own consciousness. This is known in philosophy as the problem of other minds. But that doesn't mean we have no evidence that other people are conscious.

What is that evidence? Well, we know that other people are like ourselves in many ways. And when I speak about my own consciousness, I do so from experience, as a way of trying to describe that experience. It is reasonable to think other humans are doing the same.

Are LLMs conscious? Some people are loudly insisting that the correct response is "They might be! We don't know." I think it's better to say: We have no evidence that they are.

We have evidence that humans are conscious. We have each experienced it! We know what it's like to be conscious, and that being unconscious is different. This is where the whole idea of consciousness comes from.

Thinking about the bewilderment expressed in this column about why some long-termist, effective altruist folks have prestigious academic appointments in philosophy. There's a cynical answer (rich people like their ideas, roughly) and a non-cynical one. I want to try to express the latter.

Josh Marshall@joshtpm.bsky.social

Who Is Behind the AI/Existential Risk Scare? talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/who-i...

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And some academic philosophers may join in this delusion. That's also not unprecedented. Academic philosophers are generally more likely to deeply believe counterintuitive moral conclusions based on argument than your average person. Peter Singer is a famous example of a committed utilitarian.

But that's just part of the field. Philosophers believe weird stuff on the basis of arguments that other people (including other philosophers) find off-putting, but which are difficult to refute and illuminating to discuss.

Thinking about the bewilderment expressed in this column about why some long-termist, effective altruist folks have prestigious academic appointments in philosophy. There's a cynical answer (rich people like their ideas, roughly) and a non-cynical one. I want to try to express the latter.

Josh Marshall@joshtpm.bsky.social

Who Is Behind the AI/Existential Risk Scare? talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/who-i...

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Most philosophers would agree that naive utilitarianism is probably not the correct normative ethics and should not guide public policy. But that doesn't mean it isn't interesting to discuss. Figuring out exactly where it goes wrong can be, in and of itself, useful and illuminating.

The baffling and frustrating thing about how the AI boosters wield this stuff is that they assume these problematic conclusions, which in academic philosophy would be a springboard for discussion, are something like established "scientific" fact! This is the move that needs to be rejected.

Thinking about the bewilderment expressed in this column about why some long-termist, effective altruist folks have prestigious academic appointments in philosophy. There's a cynical answer (rich people like their ideas, roughly) and a non-cynical one. I want to try to express the latter.

Josh Marshall@joshtpm.bsky.social

Who Is Behind the AI/Existential Risk Scare? talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/who-i...

View full thread

This is conclusion is difficult to accept. But that's familiar territory for utilitarianism! In its simplest form, it leads to all kinds of counterintuitive moral conclusions. This has been much discussed. In this way, long-termism is bog-standard academic ethical philosophy.

So why discuss utilitarianism at all if it leads to such absurd conclusions? Well, its premises are intuitively quite appealing. And in some cases, it seems like the reason people disagree with its conclusions are not that they're wrong, but just that they're too difficult or demanding for humans.

Thinking about the bewilderment expressed in this column about why some long-termist, effective altruist folks have prestigious academic appointments in philosophy. There's a cynical answer (rich people like their ideas, roughly) and a non-cynical one. I want to try to express the latter.

Josh Marshall@joshtpm.bsky.social

Who Is Behind the AI/Existential Risk Scare? talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/who-i...

View full thread

Long before I was aware that this was a silicon valley-supported initiative, I learned a bit about "effective altruism" (EA) from people in philosophy circles. And yes, people would mention AI, but it wasn't a focus.

The discussion usually had this starting point: "If you accept utilitarian/consequentialist premises, it seems like it would be morally obligatory to cause great suffering now if that led to humans expanding to the stars and multiplying a million times over."

Thinking about the bewilderment expressed in this column about why some long-termist, effective altruist folks have prestigious academic appointments in philosophy. There's a cynical answer (rich people like their ideas, roughly) and a non-cynical one. I want to try to express the latter.

Josh Marshall@joshtpm.bsky.social

Who Is Behind the AI/Existential Risk Scare? talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/who-i...

Specifically, this: "The credentialed drivers of the REL community tend to be not in the sciences but rather in academic philosophy. And the more I’ve learned, the more I’ve been genuinely baffled that people who think in these ways have managed to secure quite prestigious academic appointments."

in the 20th century, liberals and communists teamed up to defeat fascism. then they had a cold war which was suboptimal but killed a lot less people than fascism. let's do at least the first part again.

Thinking back on "TV will rot your brain" from my own childhood and how it compares to worries about tablets and phones for kids today. This was prompted by reading that Seattle has only just moved away from a policy where every kindergartner was given their own iPad!

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But somehow, in the last two decades, we apparently bought the marketing from Apple and other tech companies that their devices would be useful learning aids so much that SPS has been giving every 5 year old their own iPad. Presumably, they were expected to use them frequently for "learning."

So when parents today worry about "screen time" and about brain rot from devices, it's really not equivalent to overblown concerns about TV from my youth. Nobody back then was like, we have to make sure every 5yo has a TV so they can learn TV-literacy skills and do their coursework!

Thinking back on "TV will rot your brain" from my own childhood and how it compares to worries about tablets and phones for kids today. This was prompted by reading that Seattle has only just moved away from a policy where every kindergartner was given their own iPad!

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My US History teacher in high school "taught" by showing us movies 40 minutes at a time. Glory, The Right Stuff, Schindler's List, Last of the Mohicans, I forget what else (likely because I often fell asleep in the darkened, quiet classroom).

Guess how much I learned in that class? It's a shame, too. Today, I find history fascinating. In a different world I could imagine myself studying history rather than philosophy — a world where my history teacher was the inspiring one, not my religion teacher (I went to Catholic school).

Thinking back on "TV will rot your brain" from my own childhood and how it compares to worries about tablets and phones for kids today. This was prompted by reading that Seattle has only just moved away from a policy where every kindergartner was given their own iPad!

One mitigating factor for televisions was that, for the most part, people never tried replacing actual education with watching TV. For the most part.