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question for historians: we hear a lot of "you gotta judge them by the standards of their times" nonsense to justify horrors from the past, but do you know any examples of people using that same ARGUMENT in the past? like I cannot IMAGINE medievals saying "well, Athens was another time you see"

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There's one example in Beowulf, line 178: "Swylc waes theaw hyra/Such was their custom", referring to the Danes appealing to their pagan gods for help against Grendel. While the poem clearly sees this as bad, it also appears to see it as understandable in a cultural/historical context.

Though I'm also thinking of Aelfric's sermon on the ages of the world and the understanding that people living in different ages were living in different relationships with the divine and therefore different things were permitted/possible for them.

not in so many words, perhaps, but IMO it works on people because it sounds like (and is often phrased as) a kind of appeal to context that is pretty common and unobjectionable — just for purposes of analysis, rather than apologetics

any time you explain why a past belief about nature shouldn’t be dismissed as unscientific, some appeal to the fact that it was logical on its own terms, and should be interpreted in relation to the assumptions obtaining in the relevant community at the time, is pretty standard

So often in those arguments, "standards" implies a single standard--"everyone," or some huge majority, believed one way. Closer inspection frequently indicates a range, even plethora, of outlooks. Those outlooks should include those held by the objects/victims of the alleged standards.

One non-explicit example I can think of is Peter Chrysologus saying that idolatry comes from love that desires to see its object (Sermo 147). That one always struck me as a fascinating argument. More's Utopia, arguably, is playing around with this.

There are cases in the Bible where it is true both that someone is considered good, and is considered to be doing the right thing by their lights though objectively wrong, e.g. the sailors in Jonah 1 are obviously not unvirtuous people even before their offering sacrifices to the Lord.

But by and large, as far as I can see, when pre-moderns consider the problem of ancestors doing something which they would consider wrong to do in his time, either they excuses it by appealing to the spirit in which they did it or relate it to a special divine command.

guys i know it's a bad argument. this isn't my first day. please don't respond unless you have a specific historical example of someone, before the 21st century, using that argument.

Do some of the early abolitionists make this claim? Influenced by enlightenment, claiming “now we know better”? I’d have to check but I’m wondering if Emerson, for example, might have said this. Or Parker, with his distinction better transient and permanent truth.

It is an interesting question from a science point of view, obviously there was loads of relearning from the past but I have no idea whether there were any judgments on morality of the people they were relearning from. Especially since a lot were non or pre Christian.

There's all kinds of problems with the argument, such as the idea that there was a single moral standard at any point in time. Another problem is: aren't we equally trapped by the standards of our own time? And if we are so trapped, then we can't use any other moral standard but our own.

I was just talking with a friend who seemed to simultaneously be arguing that Aristotle had timeless value for us today, and that he had to be judged by the standards of his time. I believe even Aristotle would have been capable of acknowledging that particular hypocrisy.

I remember encountering some theological work from the Victorian era that did that, but can't remember the details. Maybe explaining some societal practice that seemed cruel, like banishing or shunning sinners, because the people back then were ignorant and afraid of God cursing their village

That one isn't, because the virtuous pagans are in limbo, not because they aren't virtuous but because they do not know Christ. He doesn't say that they are only conforming to the standards of the time. A more interesting example is Cato in heaven (given Cato's suicide).

If anything, I think Dante is doing the opposite, or nearly so. The virtuous pagans aren't given a pass, it's just that some are so virtuous as to at least partially transcend all the ways they were also wrong.

Would it be fair to say that conceiving of the past as having very different mores and institutions from the present is sort of a Renaissance development in the first place? This is not my area of expertise but my understanding has been that historicity develops in the Renaissance.

My guess is that Early Christian writers — Augustine and Eusebius — would be your best early examples. I mean Thucydides and Herodotus approach this “cities that were once large are now small etc.”

I wonder if there are patristic or medieval comments on Romans 3:25b, Acts 14:16, or Acts 17:30 (Paul in Athens) that might come close. These verses came to mind because each has a kind of “well, back then…but now…” element.

I believe Romance of the Three Kimgdoms (and the various other versions of the story) does this a lot. Sure Liu Bei throws a baby to the ground, but it was a time of *war and loyalty*, don't ya see?!?

I love this question. The sort of place I can imagine it happening is Chaucer's "Troilus and Criseyde". As far as I can remember, it doesn't. Which I feel supports what I take to be your point. The closest I can imagine is some allowance for classical pagans not being Christian.