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So it's useful to talk about the specific ways in which this argument is dishonest because I think a lot of liberal and left-leaning people are very vulnerable to this rhetorical bludgeon—the idea that you should "listen to experts". But let's unpack what exactly Giggies here means by "experts".

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bsky.app/profile/rycp... The Purpose of Superintelligence or whatever is Not Having To Die And Experience Nothing Forever I'm under the impression that most people believe in An Afterlife, which because of my conditioning I interpret as saying Death Isn't Real

Ryan Christopher Parker@rycparke.bsky.social

#nukesky I wonder how much different the world we be if the Effective Altruists (EA) just stuck to nuclear weapons as an existential threat instead of "we need to use AI to initiate Third Impact from Evangelion because of the whole Eternal Oblivion Thing"

For one thing, "software engineers" as a group are not experts. They don't have some form of accreditation, there's no standard of knowledge required to be a software engineer. "Listen to software engineers" isn't the same category of statement as "listen to climatologists".

If I wanted to cut hair or do nails in the state of California I’d need a license. But I could be writing load-bearing code for a public utility and no one would ask me for one. This is actually at the root of a lot of our current problems.

For another, programmers are extremely poor at evaluating their own productivity, especially in complex projects, especially when factoring long-run code quality and not just "features shipped". This is something that anyone who has worked in software should be very familiar with.

So when I see significant numbers of programmers hopping on to a tech hype cycle, my own very real expertise is telling me to be highly skeptical. I don't know how you can remember, say, the 30-year debate about OOP and think programmers can tell how useful a tool is in a year.

Finally, "useful" is a very loaded term that doesn't mean much in the way that the AI boosters use it. I fundamentally do not give a shit about your subjective experience of whether you think the chatbot, which is designed to convince you that it is helpful, is helpful to you.

Thank you

HELLGORITHM@hellgorithm.website

It has been fascinating, btw, to hear so many such certain, objective claims about their productivity with these products, in an industry vexed since its very beginnings by the question of how to actually measure its productivity. To the extent that expertise is framed by rigor, there is none here.

For me, any estimate for how long I think it'll take me to do a project, I double or triple that estimate before I present it to anyone. And then I still get it wrong often and about half of the time it's non-coding stuff that I can't plan for that derails my estimate and half is weird bugs.

The lack of duty of care, general disdain of history, and understanding the motivations (the “why”) of things is increasingly disturbing to me as years pass.

In my time at university, I had one (1) professor who was adamant that the customer is not always right, a software developer should have opinions and standards & should push back when asked to build stupid solutions. The fact that he was the odd one out for this was certainly a sign, looking back.

This is a very important thing I wish more people understood. A very large part of the reason why SE/coders specifically have found so much use for LLMs is because their field of engineering is a uniquely lawless uncivilized dog-eat-dog wasteland where everyone keeps having to reinvent wheels.

Up until some years ago SWE were gloating in how most of them loathe academia and how you just need a coding boot camp to become one and now we suffer the consequences

Software engineer here; I'll cosign that. You don't even need a specific degree for it; I know devs who when to business school and became "techies" purely bc it was easier to prove their own value as an engineer than as a consultant.

I am a software engineer, and most software engineers I've worked with are bricks in the wall. Fittingly, every other role in software considers engineers the bricklayers of the team: fairly incompetent, utterly replaceable, and wholly without authority. Nobody listens to us, so neither should you

Also, we ‘AI sceptics‘ are mostly critics of unproven LLMs with their unfixable design flaws and their disastrous side effects that far outweigh any usefulness and invisible productivity gain. There are proven benefits of ML and AI tech that helps diagnose cancer and predict climate and such.

That's the worst part. LLMs and useful ML getting both mixed under the umbrella term AI. If someone says 'BuT aI iS hElPiNg To CuRe CaNcEr' to defend the current hype cycle they flat out lie, and I think this is on purpose because a layman can't fact check this easily.

had a clarity moment when I argued with gigges a while back. In your qt, they both frame the anti-ai movement as specifically belittling the software field and its actual utility. And I bet my bottom dollar the people they get pissed at never get exposed to AI the tool, only the AI the toy.

spreadsheet people (laudatory) are exposed to its possible utility a lot more than humanities people, the later seeing most of its total egregiousness. And so when Pro-AI says it's here to stay, Anti-AI side hears that all the awful parts of AI is here. question is, good outweigh the bad?(hellno)