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Have you seen @nomads.bsky.social?

I don't even want to know. I think whoever said that I had already blocked cause I can't find it in the thread. Feel like I'm ahead of the curve!

😂 their cultural appropriation game was magnificent

Is this like a "no that was central asian Turkic People, not Mongol" thing

People will just believe whatever shit they make up, won't they? I mean, it's a fact of Human Nature, but I'm still surprised at it happening in real time!

As Chaucer Doth Tweete or tnh might immediately quip: oh my dhere ghods.

look they actually found the skulls piled up like that outside of an empty city

Surely there is a point in history where colonisation wasn't possible? Before there were clear 'countries' and we were much smaller units of nomads? Not suggesting this applies to Mongols, just got me thinking...

Technically, from the Mongol legal standpoint, they didn't - if memory serves, their word for "war" was the same as "rebellion", since the Khan of Khans was the universal ruler. Pretty sure their word for "peace" was just "submission" (to the khagan). Which is to say they did so much colonialism.

what is this word “In Vade” what does it mean ?

- Extensive contemporary records from Chinese, Persian, European, and other sources - Archaeological evidence across two continents - Genetic and cultural influences that persist today - Overwhelming scholarly consensus So, not even an LLM. Checks out.

Nobody would be more upset at the allegations that Mongols historically didn't invade anyone more than the actual Mongols themselves!

Genghis Kahn just sent out invitations and conquered everyone who came to visit.

Impugning the wonderful Mongols

Yes.

Meanwhile every single person in Mongolia, where I’ve lived for the past 16 years: yeah we fuckin’ did.

What kind of ahistorical bullshit is this? (The pic, mind, not you.)

look i've played enough ghost of tsushima to know what they were about

So "brutal conquest" is a definite yes, but "colonialist" seems like a tougher case.

Well, the Mongols did conquer Moscow at one point, I learned that from Age of Empires 4

the real irony here is like. gosh I wonder why mongolia uses the cyrillic alphabet in the modern day. who could have done that and why.

Clearly Central Asians still use the names Chingus and Ablai because they were just chill dudes back in the day

Mongols did indeed not really waste time on causes belli but once you surrendered they were quite benevolent until civil wars kicked off. Has to do with very rigid morality of protecting one’s vassals

And the arrows! The arrows get sad when you leave them out.

I also love reading about their history! The fact we're often single-sourced on most of the early imperial period, when the empire is still whole, is a bitter, bitter shame. They were monsters, though. Don't anyone go around thinking they weren't lol.

The museums I went to in Mongolia last summer were all very big on the “look how much of the known world we conquered at various points in time! (Also we never went to India because it was too fucking hot)”

(2/2) The result is that in some cases we have detailed stories of particular cities being razed, but absolutely no archaeological evidence. And the Mongols won themselves a very large empire *extremely* efficiently. (Will return in the morning with reading recs, if you're interested!)

Historian partner teaches Empires of the Steppe and yes, can confirm

it varies but iirc the third crusade had a similar time frame as the Mongol invasion chewing up the persians

"you're not the Mongols, are you?" "...candygram"

If you can stand the sometimes sleepy british narration, and have almost 7 hours, the Fall of Civilizations podcast has an episode on the rise an fall of the Mongolian Empire:

“Obey us (and do not kill our messengers) and we will leave you alone.”

And hell, at least the Mongols brought dumplings. (The only two things I have in common with Genghis Khan is that I bring dumplings, and can appreciate a good horse.)

This is actually pretty common with most pre-Christian or Islamic empires. "Tolerant" is maybe not the exact right word, but "Of course all religions are subjects of the Great Khan/Emperor/Shahanshah", &c

in quite a few ways you’d rather have a conqueror who just wants your stuff and to extract tribute going forward - and who isn’t really interested in the Moral Fabric of Religious And Racial Purity

They were also pretty big on “surrender and you will become vassals, or die”

I think the friendliest expert take is that they didn't commit every atrocity they have been accused of. Sometimes they themselves pushed narratives that encouraged the people in their path to surrender or run.

Mongols, Romans, Akkadians, etc etc etc almost all allowed conquered lands to retain their religions and even sometimes their heads of state. It makes a lot more sense, really. And it's incredibly fascinating to learn about!

Their logic re: god/justification was pretty simple. If they didn't have god's sanction for what they did, then god would have stopped them. archive.org/details/yout...

Yes. Genghis Khan was persuaded *not* to depopulate Northern China on the basis that the farmers could pay more taxes than the area would produce as pasture. OTOH the guy who talked him out of a lot of atrocities was a Buddhist en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yel%C3%...

Did the check clear? We good!

I gotta review the specifics but as I recall many nomadic groups were actually very adept at siege warfare (and/or at hiring people who were really good at it) they also did have direct access to Chinese expertise in that department and all

For the time, this was a genuinely revolutionary approach

*gulps* "When they were done conquering... What did they do with the horse?"

It's probably true that most peasants were better off under the Mongols than whoever they displaced, but the peasants in the cities the Mongols sacked for resisting conquest are a VERY significant exception.

No, you see, those skulls they piled up in pyramids after conquering a city belonged to the bourgeoisie. They practically deserved it, bunch of smug city slickers.

Ah, but is it truly conquest if you already know that you own everything between Heaven and Earth? Or is it simply a [blood] sparkling [on the blades of our swords] goodwill tour?

And I can confirm that most Mongols alive today would 100% be up for round 2 if anyone fancies

Dumplings are TRULY what is good in life

"We are conquering you guys and you can't stop us, and that rules for us" is basically the Mongol brand.

No 1/3 of Asia is related to Genghis Kahn because he was as such a Chad he was just irresistible.

My sense is that in the end they were comparatively light-touch, like "keep doing what you're doing, we'll open up more trade routes and take a cut," but getting to that point was "or else we'll kill you and everyone you know."

The Mongols were pretty honest about how they operated. You follow their rules, you get left alone aside from the occasional tribute. You don't follow their rules and your village gets all but erased from history.

I love the Mongols and I love the “so-and-so did nothing wrong” meme but you absolutely cannot combine the two

I don't super think of ancient Mongolians as having "colonies" or being "colonizers" because that term kinda erases the prior occupants of the land; that's part of the point. Mongolians wouldn't sweep the war/conquering/etc. under a rhetorical rug. But yeah they hella invaded a whole continent

a living former president—a great sign for any democracy

(The quote written down by a historian a century after Genghis Khan died, but there's no reason to think that it doesn't accurately capture the ethos)

"It's kind of our thing, really!"

Maybe not the least evil, but definitely wayyyyy below average in terms of suffering brought about per either person or unit of land conquered.

Oy. Like, I can see an interesting but pedantic discussion about whether the Mongols were more colonialist or purely imperialist, but that discussion has to start with the understanding that yes, the Mongols loved conquering peoples and ruling over them and they were very good at what they loved.

This guy doesn't believe that Epstein is dead.

Though I do think the “were the Mongols doing a colonialism, in some sense of how we use the term today ” point is probably at least debatable

Whereas the Russians established settlements as the expanded their empire eastwards ( and south) it could be argued the mongols didn’t settle , but demanded tribute from areas they controlled

On the flipside, though, you have all the Spanish people insisting Spain was never a colonial power because its "viceroyalties" were a proper part of the Spanish imperial state and therefore a totally different thing.

unsurprisingly, they're on my Ukraine related blocklist

Without modern germ theory it's an unintended effect of terror tactics. Plus some of the earliest instances of plague in Europe were in places that the Mongols never touched but were trade hubs like in Italy.

"it's not colonialism because they didn't use boats" seems to be the actual argument

Colonialism was invented in the 15th century by Southern Europeans.

Might want to switch to Civ 6. Haven’t had any issues with them there.

"Stop calling it a 'horde' these people are my friends!!"

“Genghis really knew how to treat a female impersonator.”

Hahaha

How the hell part of my lineage ended up here then? Teleported?

SHE SAID THERE ARE PEOPLE ON THIS WEBSITE WHO THINK THE MONGOLS DIDN’T INVADE ANYBODY

Don’t tell John Wayne this!

True. LLMs are too polite and factual to hallucinate a conspiracy theory that wild. Human chaos is just different.

"Nice going, Genghis."

There's also someone who thinks we should de-extinct the world's largest raptor (the Haast eagle) to help eliminate introduced mammalian pests (specifically rats) from New Zealand ...

I could go to Kyrgyzstan and round up a dozen in-laws and friends called Chingiz or Chingizkhan without difficulty, and they would all think "the Mongols were not invaders" was incredibly stupid and funny :)

Well yes exactly, that’s all true - but I don’t think anyone can reasonably claim their whole deal *wasn’t* “starting the process with violent invasions”

What about those land-stealing palefaces? “Manifest Destiny“, my ass!

"We didn't set out to conquer anyone, but that city had sprung up between our summer and winter pasturelands and it would have been more trouble to go around it. Not to mention all that loot!"

What's the argument there? They were just invited in?

Oh, what, so now it's ILLEGAL to go on a horseback ride with your friends?!?

But it’s true! The Mongols were actually known for their excellent wine and cheese parties which got them invited to every country around them! 😂

Wait what?! I need to see this

I didn’t know it was an option before

How

What

Beautiful post, Rigel. Thank you.

So I guess the Great Wall was the Welcome Wagon?

Nishapur? Never heard of it. You sure it existed? I feel like I would have heard of it if it existed.